What Car Company Has The Best Heritage?

"JR1" (type35bugatti) 03/01/2016 at 21:55 • Filed to: Heritage

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Might be a little late for this question. But I still think it is something worth asking.

Thomas Donohue > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:00

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These guys?

http://www.autohmc.com/

TheHondaBro > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:03

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/thread

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:04

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I’d have to go with BMW. Yeah, all the internet keyboard racers will have their opinion on how the X5M is an abomination, but those are people who will really never buy or appreciate a BMW because they’ll never stop their whining about “German reliability” and “German engineering makes things overly complex.” BMW, when they want to, they can still crank out an absolute track monster consistently. Every. Single. Time. Then you have their Touring Car and DTM history. Mix that with their F1 engines from the turbo era and Le Mans efforts and you get a done deal in my opinion.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:04

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Mercedes, Rolls-Royce, Cadillac, and Ferrari all spring to mind.

The Ghost of Oppo > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:05

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Damn, I think I’d have an easier time explaining women’s emotions in a foreign language than answering this question. But in all seriousness, are we talking racing hertiage, innovation hertiage, overall company hertiage?

NJAnon > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:06

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I don’t think there is a best. There are “some of the best” probably. Aston Martin, Bentley (they did race), Dodge, etc.

TwinCharged - Is Now UK Opponaut > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:10

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SO MUCH HERITAGE

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:12

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Mercedes. You can’t discount Ferrari, started with hand built cars to race, exist to race today. Longest F1 entrant.

JR1 > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 03/01/2016 at 22:14

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I agree their merits when it comes to producing cars are excellent. But I have to say I was not expecting BMW. When I think of the company few legends really come to mind. But cars like the 507 are certainly triumphs.

However since we are talking about history and we are referring to the companies heritage should we take into consideration the dark pasts of WWII? Or is this information not important to the overall companies heritage you would say?

JR1 > The Ghost of Oppo 03/01/2016 at 22:14

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Overall company heritage. And I know the question is not easy at all!

JR1 > TwinCharged - Is Now UK Opponaut 03/01/2016 at 22:14

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So much of the same thing!

JR1 > TheHondaBro 03/01/2016 at 22:15

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Interesting choice. Because their lineage is so short I was not expecting this to be an answer.

NinetyQ > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:17

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It’s hard to argue against Alfa Romeo.

JR1 > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 03/01/2016 at 22:19

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Mercedes is a very good choice. There reputation is outstanding and I think they are probably one of the few companies that can post they were never really in financial trouble. But the problem with German cars is they used slave labor during WWII. Do you think that factors in to the companies overall heritage. Does it taint it in any way?

JR1 > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 03/01/2016 at 22:19

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I know it is difficult to pick one good one.

JR1 > NJAnon 03/01/2016 at 22:19

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I know it is difficult to pick just one so many have great things about them.

JR1 > NinetyQ 03/01/2016 at 22:20

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When you show cars like that I have to agree with you it is pretty hard to argue against them. They have certainly made a mark.

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:21

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Might not be the best, but at least it’s heritage right?

No? ok.

McChiken116 - Patrick H. > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:21

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It’s Porsche. There is no question.

JR1 > Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap 03/01/2016 at 22:22

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This is actually an interesting point. Does that matter? Or does the massive success of Mercedes outweigh the darkest times in world history?

JR1 > McChiken116 - Patrick H. 03/01/2016 at 22:22

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I personally think you can make song arguments against Porsche. Also I think you can make song arguments for more mass market companies like Ford because they have arguably made larger impacts

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:24

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To be fair, Hitler is a very famous person (even though not for the right reasons). And celebrity endorsement is always great for a brand image.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:25

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The 328, 3.0CSL, 507, 2002, M1, M3, M5, 850CSI and original 6-Series and 3-Series would all like a word with you.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:26

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Well lots of companies have problems, Ford was a racist etc.. All companies built vehicles that killed people, Mitsubishi probably had something to do with atrocities in China etc.. I just look at the history, the quality and excellence and you have trouble beating Merc with old F1, Panamericana, Mille, just generally amazing vehicles. Yes Hitler rode one and they didn’t have the best practices, so purely from a mechanical and design standpoint they are probably unmatched in some ways.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:26

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Sure, they’re currently chasing more profits than they are the next corner, but if you look back at BMW’s history it’s chock full of greatness.

In the 70s, when everything luxury oriented (or in general really) was heavy, soft, and had a lazy engine, BMW created the small, light, chuckable sports sedan.

In the 80s they took their formula and improved upon it. Sized it up to create the 5 and 7 series. Started the Motorsport division that took those great cars and turned them up to 11 with race bread motors.

Then in the 90s when other brands started chasing them with their own formulas, they still lead the pack in sports oriented luxury. Their popularity began to skyrocket. They churned out greats like the 8 series and helped McLaren with the F1. Also created not one, but two motors that broke the 100 horsepower per liter barrier.

Then we all know how things went after Y2K. Popularity kept rising, M got nuttier and added more cylinders, creating 8500 rpm V8 screamers.

Then the Fxx models came along, and the turbos, and the crossovers, and the FWD. Even still, when they want to they can still build an ultimate driving machine.

I’d say BMW has a lot of heritage. And still goes off it very much today.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:27

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If I had to pick one, it would be Rolls-Royce, but only because Mercedes a) did naughty Nazi things, and b) has made a bad car. Rolls has only ever made the best cars, and the occasionally awesome plane engine.

JR1 > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 03/01/2016 at 22:29

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I could see your reasoning for Rolls Royce. And I think it is interesting you ding Mercedes for the Nazi things. I was wondering if that would play to be a factor in anyones decision.

JR1 > Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap 03/01/2016 at 22:35

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Considering how popular he was in the nation at the time you have a strong point. Mercedes did a great marketing move (at the time) by letting him parade around in their cars.

Rainbow > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:36

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Daewoo

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:38

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I don’t ding them for it in real life, but when it comes down to Rolls vs. Mercedes, and we’re talking essentially about brand history, well, that’s part of their brands history, even if I’m happy to ignore it 99% of the time.

JR1 > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 03/01/2016 at 22:38

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Not I totally agree. But just to rebuttle a little for fun Ford did help standardize a livable working wage at least (although the the man himself was an ass his company was innovative.)

But I agree everyone has a dark side and it is just a matter of weighing the highs with the lows

JR1 > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 03/01/2016 at 22:39

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Those are all relatively new though compared to the overall history of the company if you think about it. Great heritage but it doesn't span the decades that say Ford or Mercedes might

JR1 > Rainbow 03/01/2016 at 22:41

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I mean I guess this was kinda cool.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:42

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True, but they are still legends.

You’ll notice I didn’t nominate BMW. There’s a reason for that, and it’s largely the one you just listed. Although in fairness...

Rainbow > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:43

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Crap, I forgot that they almost actually did something neat.

Bytemite > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:44

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It would easily be Lotus.

When everyone else was watering down their brand by catering to crap like X5 and Cayenne, Lotus stayed true to their philosophy.

If any maker deserves the enthusiast dollar, it has to be Lotus.

JR1 > Bytemite 03/01/2016 at 22:47

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Lotus has made some great stuff. But their history is a mixed bag of great cars while always seeming to be on the brink of bankruptcy. Pound for pound though their cars literally are outstanding

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Bytemite 03/01/2016 at 22:55

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When everyone else was watering down their brand by catering to crap like X5 and Cayenne, Lotus stayed true to their philosophy bankruptcy.

Bytemite > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 03/01/2016 at 22:56

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Better than being a sell out.

But that’s just like...my opinion man. I’d buy a Lotus if I ever had BMW/Porsche money.

Your boy, BJR > JR1 03/01/2016 at 22:58

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General heritage? GM. they have had more innovations, Marques, iconic models, missteps, make ups, platform whoring, platform diversity....Yadda yadda yadda. GM is somehow both the greatest and worst automaker ever. Benz might have created the car, ford may have put the world on wheels, but nobody has shaped the automotive world more than GM.

JR1 > Your boy, BJR 03/01/2016 at 23:00

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You definitely make a solid point. I am sure when you look at the numbers GM as a company has likely outsold every other company on the planet by a very wide margin

Amoore100 > JR1 03/01/2016 at 23:04

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So many fucking mistakes yet so many great cars.

Your boy, BJR > JR1 03/01/2016 at 23:07

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I think there's a strong argument for GM being the most important auto company of all time.

Bytemite > JR1 03/01/2016 at 23:08

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But profitability isn’t what heritage is. Lotus says this is a pure unadulterated sports car. We’ll make nothing else even if it kills us. Who else can say the same? Who else has that kind of heritage...

Berang > JR1 03/01/2016 at 23:09

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Subaru.

They’ve stuck to doing their own thing, and they’ve never made a bad car. They’ve made some weird cars, and some ugly cars, but never a terrible car. Also literally every subaru is interesting for some reason.

JR1 > Amoore100 03/01/2016 at 23:17

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My Citroen in knowledge is very weak. But you are probably correct.

V12 Jake- Hittin' Switches > JR1 03/01/2016 at 23:18

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The first and the best, Mercedes Benz

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > JR1 03/01/2016 at 23:18

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I would certainly include the WWII pasts. They may be grim times but they are a part of history. Just because something was bad and grim does not mean it should be omitted. In fact, I would argue they should be learned from rather than forgotten. Historical cars I would call out the e9 CSL, the Isetta and the 2002. Even before that would be the 3/15, 327 and 328.

JR1 > Your boy, BJR 03/01/2016 at 23:19

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Could say the same about Ford. Chrysler not so much but Ford, GM, VW, and Mercedes are all four pretty much the foundation of automotive history.

JR1 > Bytemite 03/01/2016 at 23:20

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Ferrari comes to mind but that's about it

JR1 > Berang 03/01/2016 at 23:21

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Not sure I agree with the he fact that they never made a bad car or even that their cars are interesting. But I do love the company so good choice

JR1 > V12 Jake- Hittin' Switches 03/01/2016 at 23:22

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Even when you include their WWII heritage?

JR1 > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 03/01/2016 at 23:23

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So even its your grim past you are saying they spdesegre the title for best heritage. That is interesting because I personally never thought their heritage got really strong until the 70s

Berang > JR1 03/01/2016 at 23:24

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Try to think of one genuinely bad Subaru. They’ve got no vegas or pintos, or citations or horizons, not even a chevette. Even the rear engined cars are at worst, corvair level.

wiffleballtony > JR1 03/01/2016 at 23:25

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Pretty sure Ford already won this on Top Gear.

Your boy, BJR > JR1 03/01/2016 at 23:30

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GM started the whole “let’s put a finger in every car market, from dirt poor farmers to aristocrats with more money than God" thing. And seeing as trying to get a piece of every market possible by joining forces is how it's done these days, I'd say they're the keystone to the modern automobile.

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > JR1 03/01/2016 at 23:39

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You make a good point. Their modern car game didn’t really gain strength until the 70s. I guess I consider their entire company’s history as part of the airplane and motorcycles as well. I am also rather partial to BMW though so I guess that’s why I chose them initially. This video does a pretty cool job talking about their early roadsters:

Now you have me thinking though, Mercedes and Ferrari probably have BMW beat in terms of rich passionate cars and racing heritage.

V12 Jake- Hittin' Switches > JR1 03/01/2016 at 23:49

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Yep. They’ve shown that they can overcome thier own admittedly dark past. And I didn’t even include any of thier race cars.

V12 Jake- Hittin' Switches > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 03/01/2016 at 23:53

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My uncle passed up on a opportunity to straight up trade a 1992 Acura legend for a 850 CI with a stick a few years back... I mean I love the legend bit come on !

Amoore100 > JR1 03/02/2016 at 00:03

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Revolutionized FWD.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Brought hydropneumatics.

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French hydropneumatics, Italian V6.

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A better Beetle.

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A hateful rotary.

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A roof-railed travesty.

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > JR1 03/02/2016 at 02:36

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I’m gonna say Toyota (because I have too) but think about it. They might not have the “heritage” but had any company revaluationized cars like they have? They created an entire new way to manufacture cars (kanban system/JIT//TIPS), the revolutionized car quality, they flipped the luxury market on its head, THEY CREATED THE FJ AND THE 2000GT AND THE LF-A. Toyota may not have the most heritage now but few companies can say they have done as much.

JR1 > Your boy, BJR 03/02/2016 at 07:34

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That's a very good point. They did set the standard to cover all the bases at once

JR1 > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 03/02/2016 at 07:37

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True but BMW does have cool history with aviation and motorcycles so I guess it comes down to what's more important in a car company?

JR1 > V12 Jake- Hittin' Switches 03/02/2016 at 07:39

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I really can't argue with the cars you listed. If they don't have the greatest heritage they are in the top 3 or 4

JR1 > Amoore100 03/02/2016 at 07:41

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Haha I would say some of those are more quirky than revolutionary but Citroen certainly doesn't mind taking risks

JR1 > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 03/02/2016 at 07:43

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Couldn’t you say thigh that Honda had the same level of quality as Toyota?

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > JR1 03/02/2016 at 08:48

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You could but Honda is such a smaller company they didn’t have the same effect.

AuthiCooper1300 > JR1 03/02/2016 at 08:51

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If you are going to mention those guys... why not Alfa Romeo... which begat Ferrari?

Having said that, Lancia’s early years were astonishing innovative. Splendid cars too.

AuthiCooper1300 > JR1 03/02/2016 at 08:56

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If you think of Porsche in terms of “design office” (which is what they were at first, a Konstruktionsbüro) their influnce was extraordinary. Think of Auto Union, for instance. Or Ferdinand Porsche’s early work for Mercedes-Benz (rememeber the SSK?)

JR1 > AuthiCooper1300 03/02/2016 at 08:59

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Because Alfa built front wheel drive sedans so they kinda did sell themselves out.

And I did not know Lanica was so innovative

JR1 > AuthiCooper1300 03/02/2016 at 09:01

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I completely agree. But when we talk about heritage it is also important to note the negatives Porsche has during WWII. While things like hybrid tank designs were extraordinary Porsche was pretty cozy with the Nazi party. So the question becomes does that negative heritage get outweighed by the successes

AuthiCooper1300 > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 03/02/2016 at 09:05

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It is a bit strange mentioning Ferrari but not Alfa Romeo. No disrespect for Ferrari, but that’s where they (or rather he) started.

Alfa may not have a wonderful present but it does have a very illustrious past.

(Come to think of it Ferrari’s present is nothing to write home about either.)

AuthiCooper1300 > JR1 03/02/2016 at 09:13

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Alfa Romeo first and only FWD sedan was the 164 - when they were about to be gobbled up by Fiat.

What you are talking about is Alfasud, that to some extent was almost a sub-brand for small (sub-1.5 litre) cars. I am not up to speed on American terminology but those were subcompacts, rather than proper sedan cars.

On a twisty road a well driven Alfasud 1.5 or Sprint 1.7 is more than a match for a GTV6, by the way.

‘Nuff said.

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > JR1 03/02/2016 at 09:17

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If you are in the least bit interested in manufacturing I would recommend reading on the TPS (Toyota Prod. System). I’m at the #3 Supply Chain Management and Logistics school in the country and it’s something so important they teach it in the very first class.

AuthiCooper1300 > JR1 03/02/2016 at 09:25

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Granted. But as someone has pointed out, there are many who have blood in their hands. And not only Mercedes-Benz. Louis Renault was a rabid antisemite (same as good old Henry Ford) and was friendly with the Vichy government; it seems the Peugeot family was not much better, and may have pushed the case against Louis (the company was nationalised after the war) in order to get rid of a competitor.

And Enzo was a follower of Benito at first.

During WW2 the Opel Blitz and the Bedford lorry were more or less the same vehicle (!), and it could be argued that Opel (already part of GM) also cooperated with the Nazi regime. I’ve read that royalties for the use of GM technology/patents kept being paid to GM even during the hostilities. Something similar happened with IBM’s German subsidiary.

Not trying to make Porsche look better. It’s just that there are many others who aren’t squeaky clean either.

AuthiCooper1300 > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 03/02/2016 at 09:36

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The trouble with BMW is that in car terms they have never been really innovative. They followed proven recipes and perfected them time and again, but there were not real technological leaps.

For many years they built their cars pretty well, and also knew what the marketing strategy was that suited them best... which in turn made the company fabulously profitable (something like 35 consecutive years of profits until the Rover acquisition fallout finally hit).

BMW may have been more adventurous in their motorbike or aero-engine divisions but I don’t know enough about those.

JR1 > AuthiCooper1300 03/02/2016 at 10:57

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I know they were brilliant for fwd cars. Yet I still think it taints the sports car image a little bit even if they were great fwd cars.

JR1 > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 03/02/2016 at 10:58

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Really? I had no idea they revolutionized it so much. I will have to look it up.

JR1 > AuthiCooper1300 03/02/2016 at 11:01

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No I totally agree but I think one could also argue the issues around Porsche and Mercedes are maybe a greater degree than those committed by Ford or GM. I did not know about the Opel thing. That is interesting.

AuthiCooper1300 > JR1 03/02/2016 at 11:18

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Alfa Romeo was state-owned. The Italian government tried to kick-start the economy in the south of Italy –which was extremely poor– by creating some proper industrial infrastructure there. They took advantage of the fact that Alfa had a plant down south in Pomigliano d’Arco (where they had been building aircraft engines during the war) and created a new company (Alfasud) for the manufacture of small, affordable cars.

Arguably Alfasud should be looked upon as a different industrial venture within Alfa Romeo. In any case Alfa was not master of its own destiny by then.

What Alfa Romeo managed to do right until it was sold to Fiat is nothing short of amazing, considering how short of cash they were for so many years.

Besides, “front-wheel drive” is not a curse or some sort of STD. A nicely designed/setup FWD car will always be better than a badly designed/setup RWD car.

AuthiCooper1300 > JR1 03/02/2016 at 11:35

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Ford (the company) did a lot for the war effort during WW2. Ford (the man) was so impossibly racist that trying to explain that “behaviour” is still an embarrassment for the company.

Nazism evolved in such an all-pervasive way that it would be pretty hard to find an aspect of German society, economy and culture that wasn’t tainted by it. That does not mean that decent Germans did not exist, by the way.

JR1 > AuthiCooper1300 03/02/2016 at 12:13

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I didn’t realize that was why the company moved south. Nor was I aware that at one time they were owned by the state.

Either easy I agree they certainly have down some amazing things and I think right now they are enjoying a wonderful renaissance.

JR1 > AuthiCooper1300 03/02/2016 at 12:17

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No I agree. Decent Germans did exist it is just unfortunate they could not ban together to fight the raising hate.

And as for Ford he was a terrible man but I don’t think his personal hatred effected the company. (Although I could be wrong. maybe he didn’t higher Jewish workers or something I don’t know about.)

AuthiCooper1300 > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 03/02/2016 at 13:43

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I have already explained why I think BMW (cars) has to be appreciated but it does not have an amazing tradition of progress and innovation, so I won’t repeat it here.

But tell a BMW executive that theirs is a “luxury” brand and they would go into fits. That word is streng verboten . Officially (or at least until some time ago, things may have changed) BMW is about understated elegance, comfort, and a zesty driving experience, not about luxury.

It makes sense they bought Rolls-Royce. Now that is luxury.

boxrocket > JR1 03/02/2016 at 13:47

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McLaren.

50+ years of racing, and nothing but hit road cars since they started making them in the 1990s.

AuthiCooper1300 > JR1 03/02/2016 at 13:50

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They did not “move” south, because Alfa HQ and main manufacturing site (for non-Alfasud vehicles) remained in Milan; they set up a new company and renewed an old factory for it in the hinterland of Naples.

Around the same time (I don’t know exactly when) the Alfa Romeo scudetto dropped the “Milano” script.

The Giulia seems to signal that there is going to be a deep change in focus for Alfa. There is hope... but who knows.

I’ve lost count of how many “rebirths” of Alfa Romeo I’ve seen in my lifetime – and I am not even that old.

AuthiCooper1300 > JR1 03/02/2016 at 14:02

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Something in that picture reminds me of the Ghia [Ford] Focus designed by Taru Lahti and shown in 1992. An amazing if unorthodox exercise of style:

Based on an Escort Cosworth platform, if I remember correctly (the Focus had not appeared yet).

JR1 > boxrocket 03/02/2016 at 16:40

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You are the second person to mention that. I was not expecting Mclaren to get much love because of how short the history was.

JR1 > AuthiCooper1300 03/02/2016 at 16:41

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Maybe it is the same thing? This is just something that popped up when I google imaged Daewoo

AuthiCooper1300 > JR1 03/02/2016 at 17:12

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No, not at all. This is the front:

Also, I think Taru Lahti is not designing cars anymore.

boxrocket > JR1 03/02/2016 at 23:35

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My second thought was Volvo, but I thought someone would have mentioned them. Founded in 1927, focused on safety and economy, an employee invented the three-point seatbelt, and more recently the 1999-designed XC90 was acing 2014-standard crash tests, plus the death-proof-by-2020 plan.

JR1 > boxrocket 03/02/2016 at 23:39

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If the death proof by 2020 plan is a success I think my family will own a Volvo